{"id":1215,"date":"2025-03-12T08:00:00","date_gmt":"2025-03-12T09:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/fctuckerbatesville.com\/?p=1215"},"modified":"2025-03-12T09:50:24","modified_gmt":"2025-03-12T09:50:24","slug":"an-arm-and-a-leg-medical-debt-watchdog-gets-sidelined-by-the-new-administration","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/fctuckerbatesville.com\/index.php\/2025\/03\/12\/an-arm-and-a-leg-medical-debt-watchdog-gets-sidelined-by-the-new-administration\/","title":{"rendered":"An Arm and a Leg: Medical-Debt Watchdog Gets Sidelined by the New Administration"},"content":{"rendered":"

The federal Consumer Financial Protection Bureau<\/a> has taken major steps to help people with medical debt in its nearly 14-year history. It issued rules barring medical debt<\/a> from Americans\u2019 credit reports and went after debt collectors who pressured customers to pay bills they didn\u2019t owe<\/a>. But in early February, the Trump administration moved to effectively shutter the agency.\u00a0<\/p>\n

\u201cAn Arm and a Leg\u201d <\/em>host Dan Weissmann talks with credit counselor Lara Ceccarelli about how the CFPB has helped clients at the nonprofit where she works, and how she\u2019s navigating the sudden change.<\/p>\n

Consumer rights advocate Chi Chi Wu, an attorney at the National Consumer Law Center, describes the court battle she and her colleagues are mounting to slow down the agency\u2019s dismantling, and where things could go from here.\u00a0<\/p>\n

\tDan Weissmann<\/p>\n

\t\t\t
\n\t\t\t\t@danweissmann\t\t\t<\/a><\/p>\n

\t\t\tHost and producer of “An Arm and a Leg.” Previously, Dan was a staff reporter for Marketplace and Chicago’s WBEZ. His work also appears on All Things Considered, Marketplace, the BBC, 99 Percent Invisible, and Reveal, from the Center for Investigative Reporting.\t\t<\/p>\n

\n\t\tCredits\t<\/h3>\n

\tEmily Pisacreta
\n\tProducer<\/p>\n

\tClaire Davenport
\n\tProducer<\/p>\n

\tAdam Raymonda
\n\tAudio wizard<\/p>\n

\tAfi Yellow-Duk
\n\tEditor<\/p>\n

\t\t\t\t\tClick to open the Transcript\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n

\t\t\t\t\t\tTranscript<\/strong>: Medical-Debt Watchdog Gets Sidelined by the New Administration<\/strong>\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n

Note: \u201cAn Arm and a Leg\u201d uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.<\/em><\/p>\n

Transcript: A medical-debt watchdog gets sidelined by the new administration<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> Hey there\u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara Ceccarelli works for American Financial Solutions. That\u2019s a non-profit credit counseling agency.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara spends her days talking with people who have bills they can\u2019t pay, debt collectors chasing them, including for medical bills.<\/p>\n

On a recent Sunday night, Lara was winding down her day the way she usually does.<\/p>\n

Lara: I tend to read the news before bed. I usually find that it gives me less anxiety, uh, when I have a clear picture of, you know, what\u2019s happening in the world and I don\u2019t feel like I\u2019m in the dark. And yeah, that Sunday was an exception.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> That Sunday was February 9, and that evening big news had broken about the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau\u2013 C F P B, for short.\u00a0<\/p>\n

A federal agency that\u2019s basically a watchdog for consumer rights of all kinds.\u00a0<\/p>\n

So, for years, whenever Lara\u2019s talked to a client, and it sounds like a debt collector is violating their rights \u2014 which happens a lot\u2013 she has referred the client to the CFPB. And it has worked.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara: They\u2019ve created these streamlined processes where consumers can submit complaints and see enforcement action taken right away.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> But that Sunday night, February 9, news broke that an official President Donald Trump had put in charge of the CFPB was basically shutting the agency down. Effective immediately.<\/p>\n

Agency staff had gotten a memo telling them to \u2014 stop working.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara: I felt my stomach sink through the floor. And my poor husband is active duty in the military, so he was preparing for a very long day the next day on his Navy ship, and he took one look at me and knew something was badly wrong,\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan: What did your husband say?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Lara: He tried to tell me that it was all going to be okay. I think he was, uh, doing his best to be as supportive as he could.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan: How late were you up that night?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Lara: Oh, I didn\u2019t sleep. I think I got maybe one or two hours of sleep. I Lay down and I, uh, looked at my awful popcorn ceiling and tried to sleep and just could not shut my brain off.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> She was thinking about how important the CFPB has been\u2013 how many clients <\/em>she\u2019s referred to them.<\/p>\n

I talked with Lara just over a week after that Sunday night. We\u2019ll hear how she managed that first week, how she started shifting what she tells clients\u2013 what other resources she\u2019s still referring them to.\u00a0<\/p>\n

And we\u2019ll hear about a court case that has slowed down the Trump administration\u2019s efforts to completely dismantle the CFPB. And where things COULD go from here.<\/p>\n

But first, we should talk about why the CFPB has been such a big deal, especially for people with medical debts.\u00a0<\/p>\n

This is An Arm and a Leg, a show about why health care costs so freaking much, and what we can maybe do about it. I\u2019m Dan Weissmann. I\u2019m a reporter, and I like a challenge. So the job we\u2019ve chosen on this show is to take one of the most enraging, terrifying, depressing parts of American life\u2013and bring you a show that\u2019s entertaining, empowering and useful.<\/p>\n

We\u2019re gonna hear about what the CFPB has done about medical debts from somebody who\u2019s been working on this issue since the beginning.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: My name is Chi Chi Wu. I\u2019m a senior attorney at the National Consumer Law Center.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> Actually, she\u2019s been at this since before the beginning. Chi Chi Wu joined the National Consumer Law Center in 2001.\u00a0<\/p>\n

The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau started out a half dozen years later, in 2007\u2013 as an idea. A proposal from a law professor named Elizabeth Warren. She thought financial institutions needed a watchdog\u2013 or as she called it, \u201ca cop on the beat.\u201d<\/p>\n

In 2008, financial institutions crashed the economy. Barack Obama became president. In 2010 Congress passed a law to put some new restrictions on financial institutions\u2013 the \u201cDodd Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act\u201d\u2013 which mandated the CFPB\u2019s creation.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu says it didn\u2019t take long for medical debts to land in the agency\u2019s cross-hairs..<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: In 2014, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau did a study that found, if you look at the debt collection items on credit reports\u2026\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> In other words,if you ask: When people get put in collections, what are the bills actually for?<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: \u2026over half of them are for medical debt. Half. It was a huge number.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> In other words, a ton of people had lousy credit scores, not because they\u2019d taken a cruise they couldn\u2019t pay for. But because they\u2019d gotten sick.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: It was a huge problem. People would try to be buying a house or a car trying to get a credit card and they\u2019d have to pay more or even get turned down .<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> And now it was on the record, thanks to the CFPB.\u00a0<\/p>\n

The next year a bunch of state attorneys general reached a \u201cvoluntary agreement\u201d with the big three credit bureaus \u2014 Equifax, Experian, TransUnion. The big three agreed that, they\u2019d wait 180 days \u2014 six months \u2014 before putting a medical debt on somebody\u2019s credit report.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: So the idea was the consumer would have six months to straighten out the debt with insurance, figure out what they actually owed, maybe dispute it if they didn\u2019t think they owed it.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> Meanwhile, the CFPB was working on another problem.<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: Sometimes people would have items on their credit reports, especially for small dollar amounts that they never knew about until they went to buy a car or refinance their house.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> This was called \u201cparking,\u201d and Chi Chi Wu says it was especially common with medical debts.<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: A debt collector would get a medical debt referred from a healthcare provider and they wouldn\u2019t do anything with it.<\/strong><\/p>\n

They wouldn\u2019t send a single letter. They wouldn\u2019t make a single phone call. All they would do is report that debt to the credit bureaus and wait\u2026 would just wait until the consumer had to use their credit score for something, you know, refinance their mortgage, buy a car\u2026<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan: <\/strong>Rent an apartment. Apply for a job\u2026\u00a0<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: Yes, yes, all of those. And then, their credit would get pulled, this medical debt would show up. And they\u2019d be left scrambling because they would have to clear that debt from their credit report before they could get that mortgage or car loan or job or apartment, and even if they were like, \u2018I paid that, or insurance should have paid that,\u2019 they didn\u2019t have time to deal with it. Because if you\u2019re in the middle of this big important transaction, you don\u2019t have time to wait 30 days for a credit reporting dispute to be resolved. And often it takes longer.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> So, people paid up. They didn\u2019t have a choice.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu:\u00a0 And the reason debt collectors do that is because it\u2019s cheap. It\u2019s cheap to do credit reporting. It\u2019s expensive to send a letter because it costs you, what is the price of a stamp right now?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> 73 cents! Plus whatever it costs you to print it out and stuff. A guy who used to be a debt collector once told me sending a bill costs two bucks.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu says the CFPB started working on a rule banning \u201cparking\u201d during the second Obama administration. And finalized the rule in 2020, under Donald Trump. It takes a while.<\/p>\n

When Joe Biden became President, he appointed a CFPB director who put extra focus on medical debts. The credit bureaus got the idea that they might be subject to some new rules on that topic, and volunteered to make some changes of their own.\u00a0<\/p>\n

In May 2022 they announced: Instead of waiting just six months to put medical bills on credit reports, they were gonna wait a full year.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: Because six months sometimes is not enough to deal with an insurance dispute, right? I mean, sometimes it takes a lot longer. So they extended that to a year and then they agreed not to report medical debts under 500.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> And that\u2019s when I first talked with Lara Cecarelli for this show.\u00a0<\/p>\n

I was trying to figure out: Was it really a big deal? The debts would still be on the books \u2014 collectors could still bug people about them. And tons of debts would stay on credit reports.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara told me: YEP. That\u2019s gonna be a big deal.\u00a0<\/p>\n

When we talked this month, she told me she could see the impact of the CFPB in her work day to day.<\/p>\n

Lara: We\u2019ve seen a huge decrease in the number of complaints from consumers, or difficulty that consumers are having with medical debt. It\u2019s still something that we see. But you know, I used to have at least one conversation about medical debt a day, usually more, and that\u2019s not the case. You know, I\u2019m having a couple of conversations per week, maybe, about medical debt. So we\u2019ve seen the impact.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> And she could see more on the horizon:\u00a0<\/p>\n

In January, before the inauguration, the CFPB actually issued new rules about medical debt. Like we said, credit bureaus had already promised to remove everything below five hundred dollars.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Now, under the new rules, all medical debts would come off. And lenders couldn\u2019t look at medical debts when they made lending decisions.\u00a0<\/p>\n

The CFPB had planned to start enforcing those rules in March.<\/p>\n

Now\u2013 on that Sunday evening in February\u2013 Lara was seeing news: The whole agency was shutting down. Over the next few days, news outlets reported more than a hundred and fifty immediate layoffs \u2014 and the cancellation of more than $100 million in contracts. And rumors of much deeper cuts to come.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara started doing this job during the first Tump administration. She says, this sweeping change is not just a swing of the pendulum back to how things were then.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara: No, this is new territory. They were still robust, they were still responsive to client complaints. The enforcement and the protection was still there,<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> For right now, it\u2019s gone. Coming up: What the first CFPB-free week was like for Lara and her colleagues. What she\u2019s telling clients now. And what Chi Chi Wu and her colleagues are doing.\u00a0<\/p>\n

An Arm and a Leg is a co-production of Public Road Productions and KFF Health News \u2014 that\u2019s a nonprofit newsroom covering health issues in America. KFF\u2019s reporters do amazing work. We\u2019re honored to work with them.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara Ceccarelli says she\u2019s had to revise what she\u2019s used to telling clients. Because referring people to the CFPB was a pretty regular part of herday to day works.<\/p>\n

Lara: It makes a difference feeling like you\u2019ve got a powerhouse at your back. You say, you know, the CFPB is incredibly solid, they will help support you. You know, all you have to do is reach out. They\u2019re communicative, and they are robust, and I can\u2019t say that anymore.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> There\u2019s still a website. There\u2019s still a phone number.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara:<\/strong> But you\u2019re not getting a person right now. You\u2019re getting voicemails. So at this point, we\u2019re still advising clients that the CFPB is, you know, an important agency But we\u2019re also informing them that right now the CFPB is basically going dark,<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> So, she\u2019s telling people: Hey, it\u2019s worth calling the CFPB, just in case somebody picks up. But meanwhile here are some other places to call.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara:<\/strong> I had a client who had been threatened by a debt collector, and the debt that they\u2019re collecting on is actually outside of the statute of limitations. It\u2019s not collectible anymore. But they\u2019re being harassed basically, you know, calling them at all hours of the day and night and advising them that, you know, they\u2019re still subject to legal action, none of which is true.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> Which means, Lara tells me, that collector is breaking a law called the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara: And normally I would have sent that client in the direction of the CFPB.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> Normally, you file a complaint with the CFPB, the company responds to you within 15 days, according to the agency\u2019s website.<\/p>\n

Lara says companies pay attention\u2013 because the CFPB has a big stick. In 2023, the agency shut down one medical-debt collection company for violating this very law.<\/p>\n

That version of normal is gone for now. But Lara happens to know, the Federal Trade Commission \u2014 which is still up and running\u2013 also has authority to enforce that law. They\u2019re not specialists, but they\u2019ve got someone to answer the phones. So she encouraged her client to try them.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Other folks, she\u2019s referring to their state attorney general\u2019s office. In a lot of states, consumer-protection is a big part of the state AG\u2019s job. Some state\u2019s have independent consumer protection bureaus.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara and her colleagues respect the work they do.\u00a0<\/p>\n

But it\u2019s not the same as having a powerful, national agency that enforces federal law.<\/p>\n

Lara: You know, it wasn\u2019t something where somebody in Ohio has a different set of rules from somebody in California as far as where you go and who you contacted. Centralized enforcement and made it really easy for everybody to know where to go to get help with their particular issue. All these other different places, can sort of take up a piece of the enforcement action , but none of them have that same robust power that the CFPB had, or the direct focus specifically on financial institutions and and their interactions with consumers directly.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> Lara and her colleagues are still there. She says their funding comes from private organizations, not the feds.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara:<\/strong> We\u2019re not worried about the lights going out here yet<\/p>\n

We all tried to lift each other up and, you know, talk about the other resources that we have available, all of which are valuable. and we have to, you know, maintain some degree of equilibrium, when you\u2019re speaking to clients that, you know, one of you could have a breakdown at a time, right?<\/p>\n

And that\u2019s never our turn. So, um, you know, you have to maintain some degree of optimism and positivity, because if you\u2019re not optimistic and positive, for their outcomes. How can they possibly think there\u2019s hope for the future?\u00a0<\/p>\n

Dan: <\/strong>Lara says she\u2019s doing her best at work\u2013 and working on keeping her balance.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lara:\u00a0 I\u2019ve got a beautiful little paint mare that I ride um, and I get to go out and play with her whenever the, uh, news gets too bleak. Normally, she gets, uh, one or two days without, you know, having to put up with me, but right now the need is dire.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> Meanwhile, Chi Chi Wu is fighting. On two fronts.\u00a0<\/p>\n

I mentioned earlier: Biden\u2019s CFPB took a big parting shot in early January. The agency finalized a rule banning medical debts from credit reports.<\/p>\n

That rule got hit immediately with lawsuits from ACA International \u2014 that\u2019s the industry association for debt collectors \u2014 and the credit bureaus.<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu and her colleagues at the National Consumer Law Center figured: The Trump Administration might not defend those lawsuits.\u00a0<\/p>\n

So they started preparing motions to intervene: basically asking the court\u2019s permission to take over the defense. On the Sunday evening when Lara Ceccarelli read about the CFPB shutdown on the news, Chi Chi Wu was not watching the news.<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: I had been working like a mad woman that weekend\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> Drafting documents for that motion to intervene.<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: So I was kind of busy all weekend, writing, not watching the Super Bowl<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> She got word from colleagues that Trump\u2019s people had shut down the CFPB, and she was like, \u201cOK. That <\/em>going into this document I\u2019m writing..\u201d<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: \u2026Because that was more support saying, well, the, this new CFPB is not going to defend this rule and so you should let us defend the rule.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> Let us \u2014 the NCLC \u2014 defend the rule in court.\u00a0<\/p>\n

So OK, that was material for her fight on one front. But of course it opens up another front, another legal battle.\u00a0<\/p>\n

In this one, NCLC is actually a plaintiff \u2014 along with a union representing CFPB employees, and a couple other non profits. On February 13\u2013 four days after the CFPB went dark \u2014 they asked a federal judge, basically to stop the CFPB shutdown.\u00a0<\/p>\n

The next day, the judge issued a temporary order, telling the CFPB to hold off on three things:<\/p>\n

One. No more mass firings.<\/p>\n

Two: Don\u2019t destroy data \u2014 or take data down from public websites.<\/p>\n

And three: Don\u2019t return money to congress.<\/p>\n

That order lasts just over two weeks, then there\u2019s a hearing scheduled. That\u2019s happening a few days after we publish this episode, and we\u2019ll be watching.\u00a0 .\u00a0<\/p>\n

The other lawsuit, about the CFPB\u2019s rule on medical debt\u2013 it\u2019s on a slower timetable.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Meanwhile, Chi Chi Wu says there are other fronts to fight on, and not just for her.<\/p>\n

Chi Chi Wu: This is where states can step in and protect the consumers in their state. Nine states have already banned medical debt from credit reports. New York, Colorado, California, Rhode Island, even Virginia \u2014 a purple state. And so, if your listeners are wondering what can they do \u2014\u00a0 I mean, you know, obviously contact their members of Congress to support the CFPB \u2014 but also, you know, if they are in a state that doesn\u2019t have one of these laws, they can try to get their state legislatures to pass a law to protect them from medical debts on credit reports.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dan:<\/strong> We are gonna do our best to stay on top of this story.A few days after we publish this episode, there\u2019ll be that\u00a0 hearing in federal court on the lawsuit opposing the CFPB\u2019s shutdown.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n

I\u2019ll post updates on the social networking site BlueSky \u2014 it\u2019s kind of a Twitter substitute, and you can find me there at danweissmann (spelled with two esses and two enns)<\/p>\n

Next week\u2019s First Aid Kit newsletter will include a roundup of what we know, and what resources are<\/em> available. If you\u2019re not signed up for First Aid Kit yet, just head to arm and a leg show, dot com, slash, first aid kit.<\/p>\n

And we\u2019ll be back in a few weeks, with an episode about one listener\u2019s fight \u2014 successful fight \u2014 against a six thousand dollar charge.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Megan: I didn\u2019t need to be an expert on this. I just needed to have access to the tools and the podcast would remind me of them. So I was like, okay, I\u2019m so confident that I do not owe this\u00a0 and so that would get me, like, really amped up and angry about it.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Till then, take care of yourself.<\/p>\n

This episode of An Arm and a Leg was produced by me, Dan Weissmann, with<\/p>\n

help from Emily Pisacreta and Claire Davenport \u2014 and edited by Afi Yellow-Duke.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Ellen Weiss is our series editor.<\/p>\n

Adam Raymonda is our audio wizard.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Our music is by Dave Weiner and Blue Dot Sessions.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Bea Bosco is our consulting director of operations.<\/p>\n

Lynne Johnson is our operations manager.<\/p>\n

An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with KFF Health News. That\u2019s a national newsroom producing in-depth journalism about health issues in America \u2014 and a core program at KFF:\u00a0 an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism.<\/p>\n

Zach Dyer is senior audio producer at KFF Health News. He\u2019s editorial liaison to this show.<\/p>\n

And thanks to the Institute for Nonprofit News for serving as our fiscal sponsor.<\/p>\n

They allow us to accept tax-exempt donations. You can learn more about INN at<\/p>\n

INN.org.<\/p>\n

Finally, thank you to everybody who supports this show financially.<\/p>\n

You can join in any time at: https:\/\/armandalegshow.com\/support\/<\/a> <\/p>\n

Thanks! And thanks for listening.<\/p>\n

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